Episode 302
Feel the Beat — The Science Behind Soundbrenner
Florian Zimmendinger from Soundbrenner elucidates the innovative concept behind their vibrating metronome, a device that offers musicians an alternative to traditional auditory cues. By harnessing haptic feedback, the device allows users to feel the rhythm, thus accommodating various learning styles and preferences among musicians. Florian shares his journey from conceptualization at a startup event in Berlin to establishing operations in Hong Kong, driven by the need for proximity to manufacturing resources. He discusses the challenges faced during development, including sourcing components and refining the product through extensive testing with musicians. Furthermore, he emphasizes the importance of resilience in the face of criticism and the value of customer feedback, underscoring the evolving nature of Soundbrenner’s offerings in the realm of music technology.
Takeaways:
- Florian Zimmendinger elucidates the inception of Soundbrenner, originating from a serendipitous event in Berlin, showcasing the power of spontaneous collaboration.
- The innovative vibrating metronome developed by Soundbrenner revolutionizes the way musicians perceive rhythm, offering tactile feedback that enhances their practice sessions.
- Florian emphasizes the significance of prototyping and user testing, which informed the design choices for the Soundbrenner device, ensuring its effectiveness for musicians.
- The podcast discusses the challenges faced in manufacturing, particularly the logistical intricacies of sourcing components in Asia versus Europe, highlighting the efficiency of Asian manufacturing hubs.
- Florian shares insights on the emotional resilience required to navigate criticism and skepticism in the music industry, advocating for relentless determination in pursuit of one's vision.
- Soundbrenner's expansion into software reflects their commitment to enhancing musicians' practice habits, indicating a holistic approach to musician support beyond hardware.
Links referenced in this episode:
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- Soundbrenner
- Indiegogo
- Kickstarter
Transcript
Florian Zimmendinger.
Speaker A:Did I get that right?
Speaker A:Zimmendinger.
Speaker B:Not too bad.
Speaker B:Not too bad.
Speaker A:Zimmerdinger.
Speaker C:Not too bad.
Speaker B:Hi.
Speaker B:How's it going?
Speaker B:Yeah, nice to be here.
Speaker C:Although you were saying it's not too cold where you are, though, right?
Speaker B:Well, yeah, for me, it's not quite that cold because I'm actually calling in out of Hong Kong, and here it's about 20, 25 degrees.
Speaker B:So it's actually real nice.
Speaker B:Like, better than in the summer when it's way too hot.
Speaker A:And how.
Speaker A:So you're there.
Speaker A:I can see that you're wearing the Soundbrenner hat.
Speaker A:Is that what brings you to Hong Kong, work on your platform?
Speaker B:Yeah, actually, that's the reason.
Speaker B: I started at Soundbrenner in: Speaker B:I'm originally from Germany, so if you have to.
Speaker B:The difficult pronunciation, you have to thank the Germans for that.
Speaker B:For my last name.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Thanks, Germans.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And yeah, when we started working on Soundprenner, I mean, I don't know if all of the listeners know what we do.
Speaker B:Essentially, we have a variable device.
Speaker B:You can kind of think of it as a Fitbit, but for musicians, it has various music tools included, like a vibrating metronome that lets you feel the beat, for example.
Speaker B:So it's fantastic if you play instruments to.
Speaker B:To get the beat and play along.
Speaker B:And so, like, starting to work on hardware out of Europe, it was actually really difficult.
Speaker B:Like, it's very hard to even get access to components to build prototypes.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker B:Because so little electronics are now developed in Europe today.
Speaker B:It's all developed in Asia.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker B:And so that made me consider I actually had lived prior to that as a student in Asia.
Speaker B:And then I was like, okay, I'm going to do this properly.
Speaker B:I. I don't want to start the race with kind of this heavy cannonball attached to my leg.
Speaker B:Being in Europe and being so far away from where all the magic happens.
Speaker B:So I just started off right out of the gate by moving to Hong Kong to do this.
Speaker A:And how's your Cantonese?
Speaker B:It's okay.
Speaker B:I can speak a few street names.
Speaker B:And the challenge is, in Hong Kong, everybody is so good at English, so it's not really very motivating to learn Cantonese.
Speaker A:Oh, I see how it is.
Speaker A:No motivation in Hong Kong.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I can speak Mandarin a little better, though.
Speaker B:I lived in China for a while, and English and China is not as common, so that's why I spent much more time learning Mandarin than Cantonese.
Speaker B:Interesting.
Speaker C:What was that?
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:That's convincing.
Speaker A:What did you just call us?
Speaker B:Oh, you don't.
Speaker B:You don't want to know.
Speaker A:Oh, man.
Speaker B:If you want, we can speak in Chinese as well, no problem.
Speaker B:But that was a lie.
Speaker D:Maybe our next podcast, does that blow.
Speaker A:People's minds, or is that a normal occurrence now?
Speaker A:To see a German guy speak Chinese, to see a German guy speak Mandarin, Is that something that happens often now, or is it still something like, whoa, look at this guy?
Speaker B:I mean, it depends where you go in China.
Speaker B:Like, in Hong Kong, I never speak Mandarin because I can just use English.
Speaker B:But then in China, when you go to really rural areas, then people are, like, really excited.
Speaker B:Sometimes I went to villages.
Speaker B:They had, like, never seen a foreigner before, like kids.
Speaker B:But then if you go to, let's say, Shanghai or Beijing, then people are not that excited to see a foreigner.
Speaker A:Impressed.
Speaker B:Yeah, not too impressed.
Speaker C:Yeah, that's pretty cool.
Speaker C:So even, I guess even before that, how did.
Speaker C:I'm curious how this idea came to be, because, well, I mean, I guess you'll tell me.
Speaker C:I have all these different guesses.
Speaker C:And ultimately, though, what led you to decide that this was a product and that there's even something wrong with the traditional metronome that you can make better?
Speaker C:How did it come to be?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Yeah, I mean, basically it started at kind of this startup event in Berlin.
Speaker B:I went on a Friday on a whim to something called Startup Weekend.
Speaker B:And that's.
Speaker B:That's a kind of an event put together.
Speaker B:I think back then it was by Google, where everybody who wants can just join.
Speaker B:And you go there Friday after work, kind of.
Speaker B:And then you spent 48 hours working like crazy.
Speaker B:And then on Sunday, you present in front of a jury, like, your business, and as if you had a business, you know?
Speaker B:And so I went.
Speaker B:I went there for fun because that sounded like a fun weekend to me.
Speaker B:And somebody in the crowd, you know, you form groups to begin with, and I didn't even have an idea, but somebody said, I have an idea for a vibrating metronome.
Speaker B:And that made instantly sense to me because I grew up around a family of musicians.
Speaker B:Like, my brother plays six instruments.
Speaker B:My dad actually played in a Beatles cover band when he was young.
Speaker B:And I actually.
Speaker B:My piano teacher was always asking me to use a metronome.
Speaker B:And I always hated it because it's very annoying.
Speaker B:So I could instantly relate.
Speaker B:I was like, okay, this sounds super cool.
Speaker B:So I'm going to join this guy, and we're going to win this startup event.
Speaker B:And so then we spent the whole weekend working and we actually even made the prototype in 48 hours.
Speaker B:And we managed to win the first prize in this Startup Weekend.
Speaker B:And normally at that stage it's like over, but I kind of got obsessed with it.
Speaker B:I was like, this is really amazing.
Speaker B:And I got so excited by it.
Speaker B:So kind of, we were five people that came together and four of them kind of dropped out and stopped working on it after like one or two weeks or maybe a month to be fair.
Speaker B:And the guy who had the initial idea, he was actually already a bit further in his career, actually just had graduated from university.
Speaker B:I actually never really had a job out of university.
Speaker B:I just graduated a few weeks prior to that.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:But, but the guy who had the idea, he was already a bit like further along in his career.
Speaker B:He couldn't just drop everything and jump into this, but he was able to fund my beginnings.
Speaker B:And he felt like, you know, he was like, okay, this, this guy Florian, I can bet on him.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So he gave me a bit of cash to, to get started.
Speaker D:Awesome.
Speaker B:And I found a co founder in like a, A technical co founder that actually knows how to solder and code apps.
Speaker B:And then the two of us, we kind of kicked this off and really went after it.
Speaker B:Seriously.
Speaker B:So that's how the ball got rolling.
Speaker C:Super cool.
Speaker A:Well, it's a very interesting idea that your main product, which is the haptic metronome, and there's a version that goes on your wrist and there's a version that goes on your chest or on your back, right?
Speaker A:And it's interesting to think about because really all it is is a communicator with the musician, right?
Speaker A:You're, you're, you're giving the musician information about the timing of the song.
Speaker A:And most people are used to that being, excuse me, an auditory signal, like a metronome, like a click, click, click.
Speaker A:And that's what most musicians grew up with, if they grew up with any kind of metronomes.
Speaker A:And if, if we really think about the first, the original metronomes, there were like a stick that swung from side to side, right.
Speaker A:And that gave you a visual feedback of what's going on.
Speaker A:But then I don't know if I'm the only one, but I think drum teachers and maybe other teachers in general, ones that don't mind hitting kids when they're playing, we, like smack them on the back to give them the timing.
Speaker A:And the, the, the great idea with what you guys are doing is that it doesn't matter which sense you use as communicating through one of the senses.
Speaker A:With the person and little smacks like, that makes a lot of sense.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And for some musicians, those clicks are tiring in the ear.
Speaker A:You have to turn them up so loud that they come out deaf.
Speaker A:We have an issue with drummers that go turn the click up more and more.
Speaker A:I can't hear myself, I can't hear timing.
Speaker A:And then when it's time to mix, you hear in all the microphones because it bled from the headphones.
Speaker A:So this idea is a.
Speaker A:A huge change, especially that you made it so compact that it fits on your wrist and you don't have to have a massive battery pack with it.
Speaker A:What kind of challenges did you have developing this idea?
Speaker A:Because it doesn't seem like it'll work right off the bat.
Speaker B:Yeah, like, first off, you're totally right.
Speaker B:Actually, I forgot to mention this.
Speaker B:My piano teacher always tapped me on the shoulder as well.
Speaker B:So that was another reason why I could, like, relate to this when this idea came up.
Speaker B:And yeah, for sure.
Speaker B:Visual aspect that's actually even important now in our product too.
Speaker B:We decided to add, like, LEDs.
Speaker B:There's an LED ring in the product that synchronized with the vibration.
Speaker B:So you can also have that, the visual dimension as well, depending where you wear it.
Speaker B:If you wear it on your wrist, it's very easy to have the lights as a second impulse kind of.
Speaker B:And I mean, in terms of the challenges of the development, actually, there's a lot.
Speaker B:Like, the first things we did, I think, which was very good, was to prototype a lot and try out with musicians what works well and what doesn't.
Speaker B:So, for example, one of our key questions at the start was, like, what kind of vibration motor do we use?
Speaker B:What technologies even exist?
Speaker B:Because we're not vibration experts or anything like that at that time.
Speaker B:So we had to.
Speaker B:For example, that was one of the problems in Germany.
Speaker B:We tried to get our hands on vibration motors.
Speaker B:And then we walked around Berlin through all the electronics shops to get vibration motors.
Speaker B:And they basically had like one single motor in all of Berlin.
Speaker B:And I remember, you know, then being in.
Speaker B:In China, in a city called Shenzhen, which is right at the border to Hong Kong, which is where all the electronics are designed and manufactured.
Speaker B:There was like this.
Speaker B:This mall with like 10 floors, and each floor had like, a different type of component.
Speaker B:Like, one floor was just batteries, and the other floor was.
Speaker B:And there was like this old lady, she had a card with wheels to glass and.
Speaker B:And she had like, I think 150 vibration motors in her little glass carts.
Speaker B:And we could just like, buy one of each, you know, and start tinkering and trying stuff out.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So that was like one big question, like the vibration motor technology, and then another one was, where do you want to feel the vibration?
Speaker B:Like, is it the best to feel it on the wrist?
Speaker B:Do you want to feel it on the chest, the neck?
Speaker B:Like, we tried different positions.
Speaker B:We even had some crazy ideas, like having, for example, on your arm, if you wear it on your arm, to have like four motors distributed across the arm so you could kind of feel where in the bar you are, depending which motor vibrates.
Speaker C:Wow, that sounds.
Speaker B:But it turned out like the brain actually is not able to distinguish if it feels something on the inner arm or the outer arm.
Speaker B:It's kind of crazy.
Speaker B:You think you know, but you actually don't.
Speaker B:You just really feel something on the arm.
Speaker B:So that didn't work.
Speaker B:And like, once, one thing that came out of all this testing was that it's very individual, based on the instrument and also the musician.
Speaker B:Which position people prefer.
Speaker B:Generally, the best position is something very central that you don't move as much.
Speaker B:So we eventually came up with this concept of a body strap.
Speaker B:So you can wear it on your chest or it's really quite flexible.
Speaker B:There's also the option to wear it on the ankle, the thigh, the wrist, the arm.
Speaker B:So we suggest musicians in the product onboarding to try all these positions and find what works best for them.
Speaker B:And we just made the product really flexible for that.
Speaker A:That's interesting because I can imagine for a drummer, for a drummer, it would be difficult to have it on the wrist because there's so much movement and so much vibration coming from the stick that it may not be as conducive.
Speaker A:But then you put that on your chest.
Speaker A:It's such a cool idea.
Speaker A:I haven't had a chance to try it because Covid and you can't try things now at music stores, which used to be my only hobby.
Speaker A:But it looks like a very exciting idea, especially.
Speaker A:I'm just talking from an engineer perspective, especially because of that headphone bleed.
Speaker A:What kind of resistance did you have?
Speaker A:Because I've had a bit of experience with developing an audio product and there's always unfounded resistance.
Speaker A:Even if you have the best product in the world, people are going to come out and say, mostly, guys, I'm going to say, I know better.
Speaker A:And here's why.
Speaker A:In physics.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So are you experiencing a lot of that these days?
Speaker B:Oh, yeah.
Speaker B:You're like 100% spot on on this.
Speaker B:Like, so we.
Speaker B:We are running a lot of Facebook ads to get the word out and bring people to our site and check out our product.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And then the comment section, it's always outright war between musicians.
Speaker B:So, like, the one group of people is like, ah, if you need this, you have no talent.
Speaker B:You're not a real musician.
Speaker B:And then the other group is like, what are you talking about?
Speaker B:Like, every serious musician is using a click and a metronome.
Speaker B:Like, why wouldn't you be using a metronome?
Speaker B:You know, you don't know what you're doing.
Speaker B:And then, you know, people are just arguing about all kinds of elements there.
Speaker B:I would say that it's just part of every product, probably.
Speaker B:I don't know if it's music specific.
Speaker B:Like, whenever something new comes up, you know, there's a certain kind of personality that would.
Speaker B:That would get skeptical and question it.
Speaker B:And yeah, that's fine.
Speaker B:That's probably healthy that, you know, there's some people that question stuff.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker D:And how do you kind of like, block out that noise?
Speaker D:Because it must be demoralizing as a developer, when you see some of the people bashing.
Speaker D:I'm sure, Matt, you could talk to this too, but how do you kind of get past that?
Speaker D:Because I know some people are sensitive and that might be a deterrent to kind of keep going.
Speaker D:So do you have any tips for anyone that.
Speaker D:That does experience some of that negativity and how they can kind of move past.
Speaker D:Through that or your experience what you did to move past it?
Speaker B:Yeah, I mean, like, even in the early stages of development, it's.
Speaker B:It was maybe the worst because we had the least confidence that this was going to work at all.
Speaker B:Like, it's a question whether.
Speaker B:Whether you can actually pick up the rhythm with a vibration.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And then also, you know, when we didn't have the technology figured out yet, like, the vibrations were maybe very weak.
Speaker B:They were very drawn out.
Speaker B:We didn't know where to wear it.
Speaker B:And then we tried it out with people and they were like, sorry, this is not it.
Speaker B:And then I'm kind of an optimist, so I'm not sure if that's a helpful advice for other people, but for me, I kind of had this vision in my head.
Speaker B:I was like, okay, I understand what you're saying, and I agree right now it's not there.
Speaker B:But then I had this vision in my head.
Speaker B:So if you put all the pieces in the place just right, then eventually it's going to be amazing.
Speaker B:So then that just kept us going.
Speaker B:And I mean, today, what's really cool is that with different tech tools, you can be really close to customer feedback.
Speaker B:So, for example, what we do is when you set up the device in the app, you register an account with Soundprenner.
Speaker B:And so then automatically every two weeks.
Speaker B:Sorry, not every two weeks.
Speaker B:Two weeks after you set up the product, we send out a survey with a simple question.
Speaker B:Whether you would like to recommend.
Speaker B:If you would recommend the product to a friend and if you would like to leave a comment.
Speaker B:So basically every morning when I get up, I get like maybe 10, 20 messages from customers that just set up the product in my.
Speaker B:It's called Slack, if you guys know Slack.
Speaker D:Yeah, right.
Speaker B:Kind of like Discord, maybe also very known.
Speaker B:That's just the first thing in the morning.
Speaker B:I read it's like 20 messages from customers with their feedback, good or bad.
Speaker B:And that's always cool to have something in the morning like, oh, it changed my life.
Speaker B:I love this.
Speaker B:I use it every time I play music.
Speaker B:That's really cool.
Speaker B:And also, of course, the negative things are good to see.
Speaker B:What are the patterns?
Speaker B:What can we do better?
Speaker B:So this is pretty nice.
Speaker C:That's some great advice and feedback for people who are starting off in something new and like Jericho said, just overwhelmed by the resistance that you're gonna get.
Speaker C:Whether the thing is great, not great, whatever it is, whether most people like it, there's still gonna be some that don't.
Speaker C:So that is huge.
Speaker B:One final, final word on that.
Speaker B:I think when you start out with a new idea or a new project.
Speaker D:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:It's always.
Speaker B:I think the hardest thing is to do the right things because there are so many things you could be doing, and you're usually just one or two people.
Speaker B:And so the key is and not doing the wrong stuff.
Speaker B:So it's kind of seductive to start working on your brand and write your business plan and to, you know, build your castle in the sky.
Speaker B:But then what really matters is that you make something that people want.
Speaker D:Absolutely.
Speaker B:And so that can be quite painful because you need to actually make it and show it to people and hear what they say.
Speaker B:You just do that and you ignore everything else.
Speaker B:And only once you have something where you can feel or people say this is going to be something people actually want, then you can do all the other stuff.
Speaker B:And, yeah, it takes.
Speaker B:You just have to work through this negative feedback and do that.
Speaker B:But I think it's.
Speaker B:That's what it takes to develop something good.
Speaker D:Yeah, that's a great point because you depend on the feedback you get from the musicians.
Speaker D:And your customers to know if it was worth all the time that you put into it.
Speaker D:When did you finally have a sigh of relief like, aha, yes, people like it, this is gonna work and the market likes it.
Speaker D:Do you know that exact moment when that started happening for you?
Speaker B:Yeah, actually I do.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean it was quite a long journey.
Speaker B:Maybe I can tell the side story in between because that's also a bit interesting.
Speaker B:Like basically after we had the concept figured out, okay, the next step for us was to get the customer validation at scale kind of and see if we're actually just high on our own supply or we talk to a few people, they know us in person now we get good feedback.
Speaker B:But is it like real?
Speaker B:And so then to do that, we launched a crowdfunding campaign on Indiegogo as also Kickstarter for people who don't know Indiegogo.
Speaker B:But basically we put up the product project and people could pre order the product and it was, yeah, I remember that, quite the roller coaster.
Speaker B:I remember our campaign or.
Speaker B:Yeah, cool.
Speaker B:Yeah, actually a lot of people saw the campaign so kind of how it went was there's like this pre campaign phase because what you want to do is you don't just want to put it up and hope somebody finds it, but you kind of want to build up some hype leading up to the launch so that you have an audience waiting for you to launch and then it launches with a lot of momentum and you can pick up some press and stuff like that.
Speaker B:So we did an excellent job at this free campaign and we actually got, you know, we posted in forums and stuff and we got 20,000 musicians to sign up to our email newsletter before we even started.
Speaker B:Yeah, this by spending about 5,000 US on Facebook ads to bring people to our website.
Speaker B:And the sign up rate was amazing.
Speaker B:Everybody was so curious what it was going to be because we made it very mysterious.
Speaker B:We said, this is going to be the first variable device for musicians.
Speaker B:It's going to be the future of rhythm and stuff.
Speaker B:And everybody was like, wow, this sounds intriguing, I want to know what it is.
Speaker B:And they sign up.
Speaker B:And then we got like really cocky and we got really hyped and we were like, wow, this is going to be a smash hit.
Speaker B:Like, you know, and I remember, you know, calculating already like, oh, if you get 5% of people to buy, I don't know the exact numbers anymore, but it was something like we're already going to have 200,000 US in pre orders in the first 24 hours, just with a Very modest rate.
Speaker B:And then my co founder, he was like, I think we can only hit like 80,000.
Speaker B:And I remember thinking we made like, bets who got it, right.
Speaker D:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:And I was like, ha.
Speaker B:Like, I'm going to win this so easily.
Speaker B:Like, he's so negative.
Speaker D:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:Why is he such a pessimist?
Speaker B:Like 80,000, like, that's nothing, right?
Speaker B:And then we actually had like a big launch event, which was also stupid because, you know, when you launch a campaign, you really need to work and reply to all the comments.
Speaker B:But we had a party to celebrate that.
Speaker B:And so we had the party, we opened the champagne, and we invited all our friends.
Speaker B:And it was super, super amazing feelings.
Speaker B:And then nothing happened.
Speaker B:Like, we got a few sales and like, it was.
Speaker B:It was 10pm in Hong Kong when we launched, which was in the morning in the US where most of the email signups were.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I remember going to bed at like 3am and our campaign was like at 5,000 US pre orders.
Speaker B:So it was like more than 10 times less than the pessimistic expectations I got from my co founder.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:And so then I remember waking up one morning, right?
Speaker B:And I was like, maybe everybody was asleep in the US and now that it's like the middle of the day in the US It'll pick up.
Speaker B:You know, they had time to buy and.
Speaker B:But I was so scared to look.
Speaker B:And while I was sleeping, we like sold five units.
Speaker B:It was terrible.
Speaker B:And basically it was.
Speaker B:It was a complete failure in marketing.
Speaker B:We had, like, told people nothing about the product.
Speaker B:We just made them curious.
Speaker B:But they didn't really know what they were.
Speaker B:They didn't really know what they signed up for being a metronome.
Speaker B:And so we were like, really crushed for like two days.
Speaker B:I remember I didn't even work on the campaign.
Speaker B:I just played video games.
Speaker B:And we felt like, so stupid.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And then we were like, okay, like, go on.
Speaker B:Like, maybe.
Speaker B:Because we thought, you know, we didn't know.
Speaker B:Is it our marketing or is it just a stupid idea?
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker B:And, well, we just went back to the drawing table and we kept working on it.
Speaker B:And we just, you know, started grinding and turned over every stone.
Speaker B:And we ended the campaign with 250,000 U.S. stocks and pre orders after 60 days later.
Speaker B:Nice.
Speaker B:But that was a really hard grind.
Speaker A:250,000 Orders.
Speaker C:Damn.
Speaker B:No, no, no, no US dollars.
Speaker B:So that's like value.
Speaker B:So it was about 3,000 orders, I think.
Speaker B:And that was enough to continue the business and like seriously develop a mass production version which is very expensive, right?
Speaker B:But yeah, then to get to your question, you know, when did we know it was a success?
Speaker B:I mean, at that stage we, we knew we could convince people to buy it, but we didn't know whether they were going to like it.
Speaker B:So once we shipped those first pre orders, about one year after we had the idea and the first feedback was good, that was such a relief because basically for one and a half years we didn't know, is everybody going to say, this is horrible, you idiots?
Speaker B:And then we shipped out these thousands of units and the feedback was like, I love this.
Speaker B:And then we were like, oh, we didn't waste our life, like one and a half years of our life.
Speaker D:That's amazing.
Speaker D:Good story.
Speaker C:You know, I heard you're talking a lot about like, that grit and determination that it takes to succeed in business or in music really, I guess in anything in life, if you want to be really successful, you have to push through these pain points.
Speaker C:And I did hear one of your interviews, actually, you mentioned one of the things that most people fail at in life is music.
Speaker C:I think he quoted like 90% of people try music and give up mostly as a result of not having, I guess, the determination to keep practicing and push themselves through the practice.
Speaker C:When you're not good to be, obviously become better.
Speaker C:Can you talk to us about your mindset and how maybe not the specifics, but you can throw some in, but just how you were able to take that failure, your initial failure in business, and turn that around and push through it.
Speaker C:Most importantly, having the foresight to know that you have to keep going.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think it's a mix of, like I said, you have to kind of have a certain type of personality to be a creator and expose yourself.
Speaker B:You're kind of in the arena, there's all the haters outside and you have to keep going on.
Speaker B:So I think it's not for everyone.
Speaker B:But yeah, I mean, from.
Speaker B:Perspective of what you can do to increase your chances of success, I think you just have to be prepared for it.
Speaker B:Also a lot of people also in the startup world, I think also in the music world, they think of, oh, I don't want a real job, I'm just gonna follow my passion and do what I love kind of thing.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And they are, maybe they understood something wrong, I think, because instead of talking about passion, I like to think of it more as like relentless determination.
Speaker B:Like, I want this to happen so bad that I'm not going to give up no matter what.
Speaker B:Like, you have to carry me out, you know, debt, out of this building for me to give up.
Speaker B:Because I want.
Speaker B:This is what I want.
Speaker B:And I want it more than most other things.
Speaker B:And so if you feel like that about something and you're prepared to do what it takes to make it happen, like, this is kind of the ingredient for success.
Speaker B:So that has something to do with passion.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:But it also isn't like a shortcut to avoid working hard or getting a real job or something.
Speaker B:Like, it's.
Speaker B:It's actually the opposite in many ways.
Speaker B:You are, you know, working more than, let's say, the average path.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:But on the other side.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker B:At times it can also feel like play.
Speaker B:It's like, you know, like a roller coaster.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker D:Emotionally.
Speaker C:Well, yeah, that's like jumping off a cliff everywhere.
Speaker C:That's what I think.
Speaker A:So I'm wondering, not really wondering, but this is sort of a. I think we can call it an issue with manufacturing these days.
Speaker A:It was sort of in the Post World War II, the Western world kind of switched from manufacturing to hiring other people in other countries to do it.
Speaker A:And the original reason was essentially like, ah, we don't feel bad paying these people less.
Speaker A:It doesn't really matter.
Speaker A:We're going to focus on services and have people in Asia make all of our stuff.
Speaker A:And that felt okay to the Western world for a while, until Corona.
Speaker A:But then we get to a point like with COVID in Canada, in the US it turned turned out that all masks, for example, were made.
Speaker A:I forget where they were, but they were in South America.
Speaker A:Like, there were no factories in the States or in Canada making masks.
Speaker A:And I remember there was an interview with Tim Cook where he was kind of being grilled on, why do you hire?
Speaker A:Why do you build your factories in China instead of in America?
Speaker A:And I remember his answer was kind of surprising to me at the time.
Speaker A:He's like, because they work better, they have better factories.
Speaker A:They have people who've been doing this forever.
Speaker A:They're more serious about the products that they make and about the quality in the end.
Speaker A:So it stopped.
Speaker A:This whole thing started as the Western world sort of throwing the jobs they didn't want at the east.
Speaker A:And it ended with the west kind of being stuck with a manufacturing.
Speaker A:So the, the challenge of, of being from.
Speaker A:From Germany, a country that can definitely manufacture if they wanted to, and not even having that option.
Speaker A:That must be really frustrating.
Speaker A:And can you speak more about that?
Speaker A:What kind of.
Speaker A:Because it wasn't just the motor.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:It's assembly and everything.
Speaker A:And you're in Hong Kong now because of that very reason.
Speaker A:Is that something you'd like to see change in the future or are you happy with this setup?
Speaker B:Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting question.
Speaker B:Like, I definitely have quite a bit of experience with this manufacturing question.
Speaker B:Like, I have been to maybe 10, 10 different Chinese factories and spend a lot of time at the assembly lines and talking to workers and meeting different, you know, executives at these factories that try to get our business.
Speaker B:And I would say, like, in general, for, let's say the consumer electronics industry is specifically, that's mine.
Speaker B:Based on area of expertise.
Speaker B:There's a lot of network effects in manufacturing.
Speaker B:So you, you want to have everything in the same region.
Speaker B:You know, you want to have all the suppliers.
Speaker B:For example, let's say in our Sunbrander core, we have leather straps going into that, we have different metal parts, we have steel parts, we have screens, we have printed circus boards.
Speaker B:During the development, we needed prototypes, we needed packaging, we needed people that know how to develop all of these things, sample these things, put them all together.
Speaker B:And basically in South China, we have like one city that has 100 options for every single one of these things.
Speaker B:So that's like.
Speaker B:Yeah, I mean, I, I'm sure I could, I could find you 100 packaging factories in that city or in that broader region at least.
Speaker B:And so that makes it really efficient to develop something there.
Speaker B:So it's not just, you know, most people, they have maybe a quite simplistic idea.
Speaker B:Oh, the, the assembly workers, they are cheaper.
Speaker B:So everybody goes to China because the assembly workers are cheaper.
Speaker B:But for a company at our scale, like just this efficiency of having everything in the same place, like, that's really good.
Speaker B:And then it's kind of like a spiral effect.
Speaker B:The more efficient it gets in one place, the less efficient it gets in all the other places.
Speaker B:For example, in, in Germany, you would have a really hard time to find anybody that would develop consumer electronics products designed for mass manufacturing because there are simply so few projects that it's not worth to run such a design service provider company.
Speaker B:Like, if you wanted to make such a company, you would go to Korea or China, and that's where these type of companies, again, there would be 100.
Speaker B:So that's like one aspect of it.
Speaker B:And yeah, I mean, what Tim Cook said, they have a different problem.
Speaker B:They have everything in house in terms of the development, but they operate at such a scale.
Speaker B:I think one thing to put it in perspective from Apple, the factories that manufacture Apple products, they control more people every day with backtracks than the TSA at US Airports.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Because they have, like, so many at all U.S. airports.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So that gives you an idea of the scale.
Speaker B:So they couldn't even find enough assembly workers in all of the United States to manufacture the iPhones.
Speaker B:There's simply not enough.
Speaker B:And then the scale in terms of the factories and just all the components are manufactured there, so you'd have to ship them and.
Speaker A:Yeah, which is hilarious.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Because.
Speaker A:Because it's all about every politician.
Speaker A:The one of their main speaking points is, I'm going to get more jobs.
Speaker A:More jobs, more jobs.
Speaker A:And here you're telling us that potentially there was the option to hire, like, all of America to make iPhones, and the infrastructure is just so unsupportive of that in the west that they're like, let's just go to China.
Speaker A:They know what they're doing.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Over the last decades.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker B:Like Apple tried a bit, or is maybe still trying a bit to bring manufacturing into the US with, for example, I think the MacBook, but not the Mac Pros are manufactured in the United States, for example.
Speaker B:And I could see them.
Speaker B:I mean, in general, they are actually diversifying from China away into other regions like India and I think also Vietnam, just so they have more leverage when they negotiate with the different governments.
Speaker B:You don't want to have all your eggs in one basket.
Speaker B:And I'm sure they.
Speaker B:They also, you know, bring back a bit more to the US but if.
Speaker B:If somebody would flip a switch overnight and say, you can't, you have to manufacture in the US it would be impossible.
Speaker B:Like, there would be an iPhone shortage for 10 years.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Maybe this is the world's way to equalize and bring everybody else to the first world.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Because you look at China and they've definitely grown because of all this business.
Speaker A:So maybe that's sort of an unintentional way to bring everybody up to speed.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Then we take India and we bring them up to speed by doing all the manufacturing there.
Speaker A:And then eventually everybody's in the first world, and then we have a war over resources like batteries.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, it's definitely what happened.
Speaker B:I think.
Speaker B:I think people have a very.
Speaker B:I mean, it depends how.
Speaker B:How familiar they are with things, but I think a lot of people have a very outdated picture of China in where they think, you know, the Chinese assembly workers are, like, extremely underpaid.
Speaker B:Like, I see all the time, and I browse Reddit or something.
Speaker B:People refer to Chinese assembly workers as slaves or something like that, which it's not true at all.
Speaker B:Actually, the factories in China, they now have problems to find people because there are also so many opportunities for assembly workers and they're so sought out after.
Speaker B:And I think right now, don't quote me on this, but I think you get around 7,800 US dollars a month.
Speaker B:And obviously the living costs in China are much lower, like rent, food, everything is much less.
Speaker B:So you can have a pretty decent life with this salary.
Speaker B:It's not amazing.
Speaker B:You're still obviously an assembly worker.
Speaker B:You're not gonna live the life of Wall street banker.
Speaker B:But it's fine.
Speaker B:If you Compare it to 20, 30 years ago, it's insane actually how much it has improved.
Speaker B:And that's all thanks to the business that was taken out of the west and brought into Asia.
Speaker A:I remember it was like 10 years ago, there were news breaking on people in, I think it was Foxconn, Apple's and Xboxes and PlayStation's factory jumping off the roof.
Speaker A:And they set up a net to stop people from jumping and people were freaking out.
Speaker A:This is all unfair.
Speaker A:Look at their conditions.
Speaker A:But what they failed to look at is the suicide rate in that factory was lower than the rest of the country.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:If we go to a bridge in Toronto here, there's also a net there to prevent people from jumping.
Speaker A:So it's all kind of another example of sensationalizing the news and sort of telling whatever story that outlet wants to tell.
Speaker A:When in reality you're saying that in your own experience, people are getting fair wages at this point compared to their cost of living.
Speaker A:Of course.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:If somebody got 700amonth here, they would be less than homeless.
Speaker A:That's not enough for anything.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:They'd be person still, still with, with credit card debt.
Speaker A:It's, it's very interesting how, how that's working.
Speaker A:And here's something else that I'm curious about.
Speaker A:Just from hearsay.
Speaker A:I haven't had any experience with manufacturing in, in Hong Kong or China.
Speaker A:Is there a sort of culture of friendship and keeping in touch with people that you work with there?
Speaker A:Because from what I hear, it's much less transactional than what it is here.
Speaker A:Because here you go to a factory, you go, here are the blueprints, here's the money.
Speaker A:Never talk to me again.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:It's different there, right?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So yeah, of course, like for example, when we brought this soundprinter core, it's like our second generation device which features a lot of new things beyond the vibrating metronome.
Speaker B:So when we launched, this was the factory, it was like a 18 months project to co develop this and then set up the assembly lines and all the manufacturing tools and stuff.
Speaker B:And then when we finished the project, we had a big party at the factory with all the assembly workers that participated in the project and kind of the different project managers.
Speaker B:And for sure there's like, I'm not really sure if it's like different than with a factory in the US or Canada, but for sure there's also kind of a friendship and you know you, you kind of look out for each other in a, you know, you want each other to succeed.
Speaker B:Like it's, it's a long term partnership.
Speaker B:If when you work with a factory like that.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:And you go, you know, they invite us for dinners and, and things like that to socialize as well.
Speaker D:That's awesome.
Speaker B:How long like what?
Speaker B:My, my, one of my employees who, who had the title head of hardware product, he went to the factory much more than me every week and he actually added a lot of the assembly workers to his kind of messaging apps.
Speaker B:In China people use WeChat.
Speaker B:So he was like really good friends with them and they were laughing a lot.
Speaker B:They never made a music product before.
Speaker B:And kind of the hilarious thing about manufacturing music products is that you need instruments to test them.
Speaker B:For example, they include a contact tuner.
Speaker B:So then these Chinese assembly workers, they were sitting there with a guitar at the assembly line like trying out the tuning and stuff and there's a lot of pictures of them like laughing their ass off basically just messing around.
Speaker B:So it's a very nice atmosphere at least with the fact that we're working with and yeah, I mean there's also, I mean not, you know, maybe this was a very one sided discussion just to kind of also make it a bit more balanced.
Speaker B:Like obviously there's also bad things happening in China and there's also factories that look different.
Speaker B:I think for example, consumer electronics are relatively high end products.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker B:So there tends to be more budgets to just, you know, there's not much purpose to squeeze, like make it horrible working conditions and squeeze the assembly costs down to the minimum.
Speaker B:It's just much better to run a good chip, let's say.
Speaker B:But I could imagine if you go to, let's say the textile industry, for example, the materials are very cheap, the products are much more affordable and so then the worker costs are a high percentage of the product.
Speaker B:And then I'm sure there are some also like, you know, I'm here in kind of the east of China, which is quite wealthy.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker B:If you Go more to the west, which is less wealthy.
Speaker B:Things are maybe a decade back in the past.
Speaker B:So, you know, it would also be wrong to just say, oh, cool, everything's fine and right.
Speaker B:Yeah, you know, everything's going great.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker D:But that's the opposite.
Speaker B:I wouldn't have too many worries when you buy an Apple product.
Speaker B:I would have more worries when you buy, you know, like a $10 sneaker from China that might be made under not so good conditions.
Speaker A:Yeah, because you got to think about everything is made somewhere.
Speaker A:The plastic wrap on your product was made by people.
Speaker A:The screws, the tape, the knobs.
Speaker A:Everything had to be made somewhere.
Speaker A:And yeah, probably those factories aren't all super friendly and nice.
Speaker A:And that breaks my heart looking around here.
Speaker A:See, I mean, anybody at home, take a look around where you are and imagine all the factories that were involved and all the people that were involved.
Speaker A:Never thought about that.
Speaker A:All of this nonsense around us.
Speaker A:We'd be lost without all this stuff.
Speaker A:Stuff.
Speaker A:So what's next?
Speaker A:What do you guys.
Speaker A:I don't know if you can tell us, but I'm sure you guys have something great up your sleeve at this point.
Speaker A:Can you maybe hint at it?
Speaker B:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker B:Like, something we haven't talked about much is actually our software side the of of the business.
Speaker B:So it kind of happened by accident.
Speaker B:When we designed the vibrating metronome, we wanted to keep the interface really simple.
Speaker B:So that meant that we would basically use a phone to change most of the advanced settings, like assigning different vibrations, setting up subdivisions, building a library, and set lists so you don't have to program everything every time.
Speaker B:So basically we made this elaborate metronome app to control the hardware.
Speaker B:And then we had the idea to say, oh, this is just going to be free for everybody.
Speaker B:And maybe then it would be a great promotional tool.
Speaker B:People would like our app, and then they would upgrade to the hardware.
Speaker B:And it turned out that was a really good decision because the app really took off and it's now the top metronome app in the world.
Speaker D:Nice.
Speaker B:So that means we have around 8 million downloads of the app, and there's about 700,000 musicians that use the app every month to play music.
Speaker B:So the app is actually much, much more successful than the hardware.
Speaker B:But it also worked, right?
Speaker B:I mean, it makes sense because the hardware costs money and the app doesn't.
Speaker B:And so we've been also, you know, of course, we are working on the hardware, and we have new plans there as well coming out this year.
Speaker B:You can't hear it if you're listening to this podcast, but a lot of people showing the app on video right now.
Speaker B:So glad you guys are fans.
Speaker A:Here's a question that all the musicians in the house are wondering about.
Speaker A:Can these.
Speaker A:And I know the answer is they will be.
Speaker A:If they're not yet, can these metronomes be synchronized to each other and can they be synchronized to a dawn?
Speaker B:Yes, to both.
Speaker B:So we have a multiplayer sync algorithm.
Speaker B:So basically you can connect the variables to the same phone or tablet, and then you can sync up to 5 very easily through Bluetooth and then they will all be synchronized.
Speaker B:And this works quite well.
Speaker B:And then for the daws, we have a beta that works through mini.
Speaker B:Basically, you connect your phone with a USB cable to your desktop machine, and then you can set up USB MIDI to be fed into the phone with no latency through the cable, and then the only connection is then from the phone with Bluetooth to our device.
Speaker B:And that does work, but it's still in beta.
Speaker B:So we have a lot of support documentation on that on our website.
Speaker B:So if you want to know how exactly that works, then just go to soundprinter.com and go to the support section and there's a whole DAW area with more details.
Speaker D:And the software was the very next thing you guys worked on after the core product, or was there something else that you launched after that?
Speaker B:Oh, well, we actually launched it together with the Pulse.
Speaker B:And then since then, we have been continuously improving it throughout the years.
Speaker B:And so we have some.
Speaker B:Basically our next goal, we have been very focused on tools, Metronome Tuner, DB Meter, and we feel like another area that fits.
Speaker B:What we do really well is habit building and motivation.
Speaker B:So that's the next category we want to enter.
Speaker B:We are starting a lot of the other apps that help you build habits of things that are difficult to do regularly, like language learning, exercise, mindfulness, and there's a lot of really successful products there.
Speaker B:And everybody who plays music usually says they wish they would practice more, Right.
Speaker B:And so it seems like a good fit to help people, you know, build better practice habits and play more often.
Speaker B:So that's one of the next focus points for us.
Speaker A:But that's cheating, man.
Speaker A:If you're not inspired on your own,.
Speaker C:Inspiration can come from anywhere.
Speaker C:That's awesome, man.
Speaker C:We love the work that you're doing, though.
Speaker C:Oh, did you have another question?
Speaker A:No, I was gonna do exactly what you were about to do.
Speaker C:I bet you weren't.
Speaker C:Okay, you know what?
Speaker C:You probably were, but now you're not because I'm about to change what I was about to do.
Speaker C:So before we let you run, we thank you so much for all the information that you've.
Speaker C:It's been really good.
Speaker C:Business, music, right across the board.
Speaker C:Motivation.
Speaker C:Love it.
Speaker C:I wanted to ask you one thing that I didn't get to sneak in, so now's my chance.
Speaker C:Has your competitive gaming helped in your business career?
Speaker B:I see you studied my social media bio.
Speaker A:I watched an interview.
Speaker C:I loved it.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Okay, cool.
Speaker B:Well, I would say so, actually.
Speaker B:I think that I was actually surprised.
Speaker B:So the game I'm particularly into is called starcraft.
Speaker B:I don't know if anybody here knows starcraft.
Speaker D:I definitely played it.
Speaker B:It's kind of this crazy competitive game.
Speaker B:There's a StarCraft personality.
Speaker B:He says it's like playing the piano while somebody shoots at you with a gun, because it's very mechanically demanding, just like playing the piano.
Speaker B:But then at the same time, your plans are constantly interrupted and there's a very strategic element to it.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:Well, I think, like, broadly speaking, what video games can help with or what they taught me is problem solving.
Speaker B:So I oftentimes had to figure things out on my own in the game.
Speaker B:And maybe today it really depends on what games you play.
Speaker B:Like today they get so frictionless and dumb.
Speaker B:You know, if you play Candy Crush, that's not gonna teach you anything.
Speaker A:Yeah, frictionless and dumb.
Speaker A:I love that.
Speaker A:Should be a T shirt.
Speaker B:There should be a label for people,.
Speaker A:A sticker you put in a person.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, maybe.
Speaker B:Maybe it's just my elitism as a.
Speaker B: s, early: Speaker B:To learn problem solving, and they were challenging.
Speaker B:And, yeah, you could really learn a lot of things there.
Speaker B:So I just had my first son.
Speaker B:I'm making sure.
Speaker B:Never gonna get an iPad to play Candy Crush.
Speaker B:I'm gonna give him all the good challenging games that I played, so hopefully he's gonna be into them.
Speaker D:And Legos, don't forget about Legos.
Speaker D:Legos are great for kids.
Speaker B:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker B:That's an offline game.
Speaker B:That's good.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:Speaking of playing piano by being shot at, that just reminded me of the Pianist with Adrien Brody.
Speaker A:Bringing it back to Germany.
Speaker A:Would you.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's a crazy, crazy movie.
Speaker A:Would you tell the folks at home, and many of them who are driving how to reach you, how to find this product?
Speaker A:Anything that you want people to know at this point?
Speaker A:Socials.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker B:Yeah, sure.
Speaker B:So if you want to learn more about Soundprenner and our products, the best place to go is soundprenner.com we're also on Instagram, under soundbrenner, you spell it sound and then B R, E, N, N, E, R. And then for me specifically, if you want to follow me, I am under the handle Simon Fl on Twitter, Instagram, and there you can also DM me and reach me Twitch.
Speaker B:I'm just a viewer, not a streamer.
Speaker B:You'll find me in the channels of the big starcraft tournaments in the chat.
Speaker A:Awesome.
Speaker A:Thank you so much for developing something that's so helpful for musicians and not even the whole cheating thing we've covered, but.
Speaker A:But even just the idea of some people can't make any noise at home.
Speaker A:People are stuck in their homes during this pandemic or otherwise.
Speaker A:They're stuck at home, they can't make noise.
Speaker A:And anybody that's practiced for the metronome, you know that it has to be louder than what you're playing so you can hear it, and that's sometimes more annoying than the instrument itself.
Speaker A:And you've given people a solution, an affordable solution that they can practice, and they can practice on the bus on the way to work, whatever they want.
Speaker A:It's on you.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And that's incredible.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker A:Keep on doing those developments.
Speaker A:And if you're taking that kind of spirit into other avenues, like you said about practice and mindfulness, then no doubt that you guys are going to succeed with that as well.
Speaker A:So good luck with all that.
Speaker A:Hopefully we'll have you on the show in the future where you can talk to us about other products, maybe in person, since you travel so much.
Speaker A:Take care of yourself out there.
Speaker A:Thanks for stopping by.
Speaker D:Really appreciate it.
Speaker A:Hang ten.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker B:Well, thank you.
Speaker B:Thank you so much.
Speaker B:Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker B:It was a.
Speaker B:Was a pleasure.
Speaker B:Cheers.
